A difficult place.

Hey folks. Sorry for the lack of activity. You see, I'm in a difficult place at the moment in regards to WHFB. I cannot make my mind up about my Skaven, and I have just restarted WM. So a lot is going through my head at the moment.

From here on I'm just typing down skaven ideas as I think them. Prepare for some incoherent rambling.


So I was thinking about my MSU army and it's main problems. Sure LD and the fact I put in too many WFTS, in addition to it folding like a paper bag in CC is a problem, but the big one is how easily it surrenders VPs. That's definitely the problem.

So how can I fix it? Well making VPs much harder to obtain is something Skaven can do tbh. Taking units of 50 skavenslaves is one way. Those things take forever to get through. Ok I thought, lets try out something of that nature.

2 Furnaces
3x50 Slaves
10 Stormvermin w/WFT + Storm Banner
2x37 Plague Monks w/FC. One unit has a Flame Banner
Hellpit
2 Warp Lightning Cannons

Ok sure, that works. No magic? Nope, no magic. Why? Well you see I figure the spells that will be damaging to this army are going through anyway. So I really don't care enough. Besides, there's enough models in this army to soak up a few dwellers (and my heroes and hellpit don't care about dwellers or purple sun).

Right ok, so it's got some protection but it's pretty damn vulnerable to shooting. The slave units aren't really going to do anything either are they? Just sit back and take a beating, hopefully staying alive till the end of the game to score me my 102 VPs. Hurm. I also think it's very fragile to shooting and the like. Let's see how we can fix that then.

Grey Seer on Bell w/Scroll
5 Units of 50 Skavenslaves w/music
40 clanrats w/shields + fc
2 Hellpits / 2WLC + 1 Hellpit
Rest on WFTs

Something of that nature most likely. This would sit back and just not give up VPs. This list would ideally not need to close with you. See, due to the way redirection works now it's not efficient (and spreads a lot of panic) to run MSU I feel. But if a MSU army gets its way I feel it'd rape face. So what do you need for MSU these days? Cheap hitty units that don't panic at the sight of their own skin. Honestly, I think you're looking for beastmen. Skaven's problem with it is LD and not having anything that can stand up in CC.

Ahem, anyway. This is why I believe I'm probably going to be better served going back to horde. To be honest it doesn't bother me at all, as any kind of skaven is good skaven.

So I'm thinking MSU skaven is definitely a viable build, but LD and the inability to maneouvre correctly really puts me off of it. So back to LD10 stubborn which the internet says is OP.



Ok so these lists are ordinarily very vulnerable to magic. So you can either protect your heroes and lords by being cheap, or by being survivable against it. Survivable for me is a Priest on Furnace (S5, I5 for dwellers or purple sun), a Seer on a Bell (S5, I5), a Warlord (90pts and S4, I7), Warlord on a rogre BB (S6, I7) etc. See these models are all pretty good, it just comes down to finding the most efficient, I feel.


Now armies like these (lots of big units), as I've already said, benefit from good LD. The problem is a 12" bubble isn't enough. Which means I'm probably going to take a Priest on a Furnace or a seer on a bell. But this raises a pressing concern, in that I'm horrifically vulnerable to war machine fire. While gutters can handle this pretty well, for 10 gutters I could have 2 units of 30 slaves. Ha! But what would you do with 2 units of 50 slaves? March them straight at your bastarding war machines, that's what. React or die. Chances are you wont kill my bell turn one (3 cannons vs a 4+ no shooting, and a 4+ ward, as well as 6 wounds on the bell and 3 on the seer) and turn 2 it's a maybe. Problem is war machines tend to be in the back 6" of the board. Putting a whole 30" between my units and them. Meaning a unit that walks will take till turn 3 to get there. That's not acceptable. You would need cavalry speeds to get there on turn 2, which is something skaven just can't do.

So it comes back to gutter runners. God damn it. These guys (while awesome) don't come cheap. At the price of almost 150 slaves for 15. Yeah, they're valuable. I reckon I'll probably need to put them in.

"But how is this army going to function?" I hear you say. Truth be told, I don't know yet. Those slave units might not be going anywhere ever, but I don't know how I'll kill anything either. Sure, the seer can do pretty well for himself, but I have a whole army to kill!

Or do I? See here's where it breaks down a bit. All I need to do is score double what my opponent scores. If my opponent is busy hacking down 102pt slave units for the game then I see this going pretty well for me indeed. Teeny tiny reward for a lot of effort. However this kind of army hinges monumentally on the general, which is why he needs to be so well protected. As I said the bell does this, but it does make him very attractive to cannonfire.

What else is attractive to cannonfire? Hellpits. Hurm. So they're in too I guess? I suppose they're not too easy to get points off of. And they can quite happily munch basic infantry while I let elite infantry chew the cud that is a block of 50 slaves. Oh and I'll need a BSB I suppose. Ok so lets have a look at how this army turned out.

Grey Seer on bell w/scroll
15 Gutter Runners
2 Hellpits
BSB w/ Storm Banner
5x 60 Slaves w/Musician

Gah, but I need a bell unit! Ok back up a bit then...

Grey Seer on bell w/scroll =475
15 Gutter Runners =270
2 Hellpits = 470
BSB w/ Storm Banner = 120
3x 60 Slaves w/Musician = 366
50 Slaves w/Musician = 108
40 Clanrats w/Shields + Full Command = 200


Something like that I suppose. But it looks so vulnerable and fragile. Ugh.



See, this is the problem I'm having with Skaven. I can't get them into a place where I'm happy with them.

Help?


P.s. Kudos if you read that. The ramblings of a madman.

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Skaven Ard Boyz (3000)

This is more a mental exercise than anything else. I think the game is really really broken at or above 3000. But I want to see how the "no magic" approach works here, because the effect of it is lessened the higher points you play. On the flip side it makes panicking a much bigger problem. Mostly cause you'll be more spread out and prone to panic. Anyway...


Lord
Warlord
Dragonhelm
Shield
103

Well there's not much I can really do for my general. So a 3+/6++ and a 2++ vs fire is gonna have to do you sir.

Heroes
Chieftan
Shield
BSB
The Storm Banner
122

Having the option to activate this is always gonna be nice. Especially if there's flyers I need to deal with.

Warlock Engineer
Doomrocket
45

Warlock Engineer
15

Pretty standard fare really. I'm quite light on heroes. But you'll see why.

Core
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Banner of Discipline
Warpfire Thrower
165

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

Keep scrolling down...

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

Almost there...

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

Righty, here we are. Yeah, that's a lot of Stormvermin with Warpfire Throwers isn't it. Would you like to be looking at 12 Warpfire Throwers across the board? Especially with the artillery backup these lads have. I didn't think so.

5 Giant Rats
Packmaster
23

5 Giant Rats
Packmaster
23

5 Giant Rats
Packmaster
23

These are my favourite redirector. Small footprint but not that likely to cause panic because they very rarely get wiped out to a man. It's nice. In addition in 3k I'd expect a lot of warmachines (>10 from empire) and these are great to run straight at warmachine crews. Really, give it a go.

Special
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

What's better than 3 units of gutter runners? Like I say, I expect war machines to be all over the shop in 3k, these guys help mitigate that problem. I love these guys to pieces. :3

Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Oh jesus christ... That's a LOT of power. Warp Lightning Cannons are silly good for their points.

So how does this army play. Well, in Watchtower you get to do 12D6 S5 hits to units in the Watchtower on turn one (lol). But seriously, against a combatty army you march the redirectors up, with the WFTs about 8" or so behind. Then you open fire. Your redirectors die but they buy you another turn of shooting. Gutter Runners and WLCs of course just do their thing.

Against a shooty army you keep your WFTs behind the vermin for hard cover (or BLOS, Stormvermin are big skaven) while advancing up toward their gunline. Chances are, with the stormbanner especially, they're not gonna be able to stop 120 stormvermin AND 12 Warpfire throwers from making it there.

So aye, what do we reckon? :P Personally I think that this kind (the no magic one) of army works better at higher point levels, because, like I said, magic has it's effect lessened. Hell, the 4k version of this would just have another 70 stormvermin with warpfire throwers in attendance. Man I wanna play that army. Lol.

Hope you guys enjoyed the article.

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Warpfire Throwers and Poisoned Wind Mortars.

My thoughts on the matter. In my opinion these are easily the two best weapon teams, and it's a tough call, so we're going to go through the pros and cons of the two of em.

I feel this sums up my new feelings on wizards.

Now as I'm sure you've noticed (you better have) I have a new army with 9 weapon teams. I'm having a rough time deciding what should be what. At the moment it's 9 warpfires just for raw hitting power. However that may well change. To the pros and cons!

So let's start with:

THE WARPFIRE THROWER
Huh, this age old classic. Right let's have a look at the pros:

- Very, very damaging. A direct hit against let's say a block of 25-30 infantry will usually leave them with less than 2 ranks. As in less than 10 models. It's a sickeningly powerful weapon. Strength 5 templates. Ouch. But that's not all, this monster also does D3 wounds, which means not even monsters and ogres are safe. This is truly a weapon you can fire at just about anything and expect to worry it. Having my army based around these means there's few threats that wont simply just drop dead as they come close. I mean, a good hit on a unit of ogres and you're still looking at about 8 wounds. That's one shot! Consider this thing only costs 70pts. Man.

- Accurate. Yup, out of the weapon teams this thing is the most accurate. It's very easy to get hits with WFTs. It's rare you over or undershoot if you're making shots at the right range and have positioned correctly. If you fire in the right direction most of the time you're gonna hit. And you're gonna hit a lot.

- Autopanic. Yeah it automatically causes panic too. Cause it really needs ithat upgrade?! How often will these things not cause panic? Whatever. Lol.

- Decent range. Your average amount of distance you can expect to cover with these things is 12" to 14". Which is (ideally) where you want the back of the unit you're firing at to be. However if it means not getting charged next turn you can make do with "just" getting around 13 hits. Lol. However when these things are in amongst your lines chances are you wont be able to get far enough quick enough.

- Stand and shoot. No, fucking really. They can stand and fucking shoot. More bullshit please? What's that unit of 30 empire swordsmen/T3 whatever? I can't hear you over the sound of you all dying a burny fiery death.

Cons:

- Static. This is the big one. It's a move or fire weapon. This means you'll usually get one or two good shots off with em. Those being the turn you get to fire, and your stand and shoot reaction. Now admittedly (as I said) if either of those hits you're looking at serious damage, but if you compare this to the mobility of the Poisoned Wind Mortar it doesn't quite stand up. I mean, sure you can move it and not fire to set up some good shots later (in particular, having a WFT in every direction around a unit works, as they're going to spend forever catching them all). But this is nothing compared to the constant movement and firing capability of the Poisoned Wind Mortar, like I said. It'll always be firing.

- Volatile. 5/6 of the misfire results kill this thing. 6 is just it doesn't fire. 1-2 is actually the best result, as with proper spacing it'll do absolutely nothing. The 3-5 however, hrm. Not so good. You do not want this thing running into friendly units and taking them with you. At the same time it can do the exact same thing to enemy units. With good movement in turns prior you can actually make it so that even a misfire hurts your enemy. But compared to the reliability of the poisoned wind mortar it's just not the same.

- Doesn't ignore armour. Sure it's -2 which is good enough for infantry, but not heavy cav. However I have WLCs for that kind of thing. It's worth mentioning though cause it's one of the few skaven weapons I field that doesn't ignore armour.

- Expensive. More expensive, but barely. It's only 5pts more.

Righty, so lets take the army from the battle report, with teclis. Now, I outrange that list with Warp Lightning Cannons, and have gutter runners harrying and such. They have no choice but to come running to me. Now while teclis (he's such a wanker) can shoot white hot magic all over my WLCs (see?) within 24", proper deployment should avoid this. Considering how many units I have then I should get to dictate deployment. So on coming toward me, there will invariably be that turn when I just get to absolutely tear the HE a new one, with 9 WFTs and the doomrocket opening up. I mean, even if say 4 of those hit, that's like 3 units decimated. Then in the next HE turn they go into the redirectors, which buys me another turn of shooting. Then the HE turn to face me. This is where I move. And I have to move. It'll take some damn good redirection to make this move worth anything as well. As the HE unit will have to be close enough to me I can either put in another redirector, or get out of it's LoS.

Ok, on to the challenger.

THE POISONED WIND MORTAR

The new kid on the block. Bringing long range and blast templates to the skaven arsenal. Let's have a look.

Pros:

- Ignores toughness. This is a nice one. A Poisoned Wind Mortar doesn't care about your toughness at all. This is good because (generally, in the scope of the game) high toughness is good, as are spells that increase your toughness.

- Ignores armour. Another nice little perk. This means that this thing can pretty much rain it down on whoever the fuck it wants. White Lions with Flesh to Stone (as in the batrep)? No problem. Chosen with a 2+ save? Can do. Shouldn't need to explain why this is good.

- Can fire without LoS. Usually you want to fire with LoS, just cause you can hit things with scatters of 2" and 4". But admittedly it's a very nice option to have. Especially if you're against heavy fire.

- Range. This is a big one. While the WFT may not get to open fire until turn 2 or 3, this guy can start on turn one. My problem however is actually with the first. People argue range all the time. It's only that good (I find) against shooty units, that stay in the back field. How often do you see big shooty units you want to be shooting with this thing? Not very often is the reply. Again though, even though this can open up turn one, a WFT goes turn 2 if you get second (odds are I will, lots of units), so it's not that much extra time spent shooting. Although, being able to fire across the field and really concentrate is a nice perk of this. With these things because of the range you really can just bomb stuff out of existance. I'm talking 11 templates landing on one unit. See what's left at the end. My money is on not fucking much.

- Mobility. Hurm. Here's the really big one. This lil' bastard can move 5" and shoot. While that may not seem huge, they move as single models. That means these are very good at literally running in circles around blocks, while firing. They can also kite and suchlike. Honestly I can't say how big this is. But it just means these will be stupidly hard to catch. Stupidly stupidly hard. Unless you have ranged.

- Ol' reliable. Yeah these things aren't nearly as likely to die to misfire. Hell the misfire chart isn't even devastating. It's bloody weird. Still, means unless you actively go out to kill them these won't die very often at all.

Cons:

-Hits like a wet paper sack full of cotton balls dipped in antiseptic. Yeah, these things don't hit hard. Sure always wounding on a 5+ is nice. But when you're firing at mass T3 infantry it's a bit lacklustre. Sure hit 20 kill 6... mneh. See this ties in directly to the next problem.

- Gets worse the more they kill. "Wait a second! Surely the same applies to warpfire throwers!" Well yeah, but they take out 85% of a unit in one shot. So you know, the stormvermin or gutter runners can mop up after that. With poisoned wind mortars though, when you're down to hitting 12 or so models (if you hit with no scatter) it can become horribly slow going. Getting rid of that last rank can be hell. See I already tried a list with... it was like 6 of these. I know from experience. >_>

- Accurate as a vindicare with a blunderbuss. In fact, knowing vindicares that's prolly still pretty accurate. Anyway, point being these aren't accurate. Sure it's great to say you can prolly down a unit just shooting these at them. But realistically, I doubt you'll be able to. This is the number one problem for these for me, compared to the WFT. When you fire a WFT at a unit, you're damn damn likely to hit and kill a lot guys. When you fire a PWM there's every chance it'll do nothing, or hit maybe 5 guys. It's even worse if you're firing out of line of sight.


So which do I think is better? At this moment of time, the Warpfire Thrower. Why? Well, it's less survivable, it's static, it will die if it misfires. However, if it hits you, even once, chances are your unit will just drop. And I have 9 of them. In addition I don't think the PWM will bring along enough power for it to be worth it. However in my previous army I did enjoy the Poisoned Wind Mortar. If I find myself wanting/needing one I won't hesitate to add it in.

Hope you guys enjoyed the article. Read more!

A novel idea...

So, in this thread I'm going to drop the mother of all bombshells on you regarding my Skaven army. This is going to be some big stuff. Unheard of, especially considering my attitude usually toward the subject. But hear me out...


There will be no pictures in this thread because it is such serious business.

I'm thinking about dropping my Grey Seers.

I'm thinking about running without magic.

thinking about running without magic
running without magic
without magic
magic


Yeah really. And here's why.

I was on the train home earlier today and was sitting thinking about a game I'd had offered to me by a Lizardmen player. Then I got to thinking about some tactics I could use, mostly involving getting my seers to survive dwellers. Which got me thinking down the road of how efficient magic really is. When you're paying 275pts for a seer with a power scroll, that's not bad. I mean, if he nabs a character with 13th he usually makes his points up. But so many spells in this game can kill him before he even gets to. It makes WHFB very alpha strikey in that regard. That's why I think there's only a few wizards that're really all that viable (Teclis, Slann, Horrors, powercaddies) in this new element. It's like having two guys standing naked in pools of water firing electricity guns at each other.

For example, last weekend I was sitting watching a Slann and Teclis try and nab each other with dwellers and pit of shades. Fun for all the family? I think not.

So, won't I get trampled with no magic defense? Well, mostly. See, in 8th ed if you want a big spell off though, you get it off. There's nothing your opponent can do to stop that happening. "But your opponents don't need to make sure they get high rolls to cast, as there's nothing you can do to stop them!". Ok then, lets have us an example. Say I'm up against a life wizard against the new, wizardless army. Dwellers, don't care. Earthblood, don't care. Awakening, don't care. Shield of Thorns, don't care. Throne of Vines, I can dispel it whenever I suppose. Flesh to Stone, this I care about, and will just throw all my dice at it. This means they need to make sure they cast it well.

Obviously that's a simple example but the point stands. So then, you ask, my inquisitive readers, what would a wizardless army look like? Well, it would have to take advantage of what magic can't deal with very well. "What's that?"

MSU.

Yup, my golden boy is back. There are only a few things that bother me magically as MSU. One of them is Chain Lightning. Gift of Chaos, Comet of Cassandora... and I think that's it. I suppose Plague but it's not reliable and it's short range. Ho hum. So how do we build this magically resistant, MSU army. Well, as Skaven we need something to do the killing. For me that's shooting. So on we go to have a gander...

Lord
Warlord
Shield
Dragonbane Gem
98

Heroes
Chieftan
Battle Standard Bearer
Shield
72

Warlock Engineer
Doomrocket
45

Warlock Engineer
15

Core
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
Standard of Discipline
165

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

Special
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Warp Lightning Cannon
90

So there we have it. You can of course swap weapon teams around as you please. But now, let us have a review of this list.

First off our general. Well basically he's cheap LD7. One might argue I would be better off with a chieftan, for only one loss in LD. But LD7 is so much better than LD6. I also get LD8 (discipline) but there's a lot of modifiers out here, and anyway, the big killer of this list is panic. The Doomrocket is of course auto include, and the engineers are just redirectors. The Warp Lightning Cannons are auto include and the gutter runners are war machine hunters and unit finisher-offers. So the core. Well.... it's 9 units to get in people's way, and 9 warpfire throwers. They also give my general +1LD which is nice. But yeah, 9 warpfire throwers.

You guys enjoy your dwellers or whatever, I reckon I'm gonna stay here. To be perfectly honest I'm half tempted to get a seer with a scroll just to evaporate big powerful hard to kill units, but I'd be dropping 2 warpfire throwers and 20 stormvermin. Fair enough that could be worth it but the seer is so fragile. I mean, losing him turn one to an opposing caddy is mneh. And Skaven aren't likely to get first turn in most scenarios (so many units).

Hope you enjoyed the article.

What do you guys think?




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In the distance of the far future...

There is only grimdark. So much grimdark guys. Nah seriously, as this blog is over a month old now I feel I can dilute the pool a bit, but just a bit. This is a thread helping me choose what 40k army I should go for first. Come the end of the year I'll have both anyway but this will be nice.

So this isn't my first 40k army. Heavens no. However it is the one I'll be getting back into the game with. Blood Angels. So today I have 2 lists for you, you guys have to pick the one you like best and I'll get it first. (:. Pick it for whatever reason you like. As a note, my guys are gonna be bone coloured marble, golden weapons, black wings, red shoulder/decal. Just to help you visualise it. Here we go...

List A:
HQ
Dante
225

Librarian
The Blood Lance
Shield of Sanguinius
Jump Pack
125

5 Honour Guard
Jump Packs
4 Melta Guns
205

Elites
5 Sternguard
2 Melta Guns
2 Combi Meltas
Drop Pod
180

Sanguinary Priest
50

Troops
5 Sanguinary Guard
2 Inferno Pistols
220

5 Sanguinary Guard
200

5 Sanguinary Guard
200

5 Sanguinary Guard
200

Heavy Support
5 Devastators
4 Missile Launchers
130

5 Devastators
4 Missile Launchers
130

5 Devastators
4 Missile Launchers
130

That's 2k. Nice fun list, should be hella fun to play with. I reckon I'll really enjoy it, and it'll look awesome. I also have a 1500 version (drop a unit of sanguinary guard, the sternguard and the libby), which isn't as good but is playable.

Next we have an army I also really like just cause I love the look of predators, and have never had one before. So...

HQ
Librarian
Shield of Sanguinius
The Blood Lance
100

Troops
5 Assault Marines
Melta Gun
Infernus Pistol
Razorback
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer
145

5 Assault Marines
Melta Gun
Infernus Pistol
Razorback
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer
145

5 Assault Marines
Melta Gun
Razorback
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer
130

5 Assault Marines
Melta Gun
Razorback
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer
130

Fast Attack
Baal Predator
Twin Linked Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
145

Baal Predator
Twin Linked Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
145

Baal Predator
Twin Linked Assault Cannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Hunter Killer Missile
155

Heavy Support
Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
135

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
135

Predator
Lascannon Sponsons
135

1500

Obviously not as many points, but 1500 is the standard around here, meaning I'd get to play with the whole army more often. This is another army I like (mobile firepower, and preds look cool) and would love to paint because I think it would look ace on the table.

Admittedly, both of them would look really nice. So, which one do you think I should go for first?

Thanks folks.

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How to win, comp, cheesy broken combos, fame, and secret tactics.

Within the depths of this post I'm going to show you the most important tips that you'll need to remember if you ever want to win at WHFB. But if you remember this advice then you'll beat 90% of the people you play against. Like I said, the best way to win in WHFB. I'll discuss some of the unit combinations that work with these strategies, and the (admittedly slightly hindered) version of it you can run in comp.

Ha, that got your attention.

This is a post to get you. Yes you. And now you're here. My lil honey trap worked. This my friends is a community project. One of those things that usually don't work on the blogosphere. Those things that only  the giants like 3++, YTTH and such can pull off. Ok then, but based on how much activity my poll has gotten in the past few days, I'm guessing a lot more of you visit this site than you let on.

Ok so what's the point of this post, I'm getting there. It's somewhat related to the title. I understand a lot of my readers are new to WHFB, haven't started, are considering starting and suchlike. You folk are more than welcome here as well. See, I'm putting on my elitist (sort of, more englightening) cap and bringing the light to the masses. "Mate, what are you on about?"

Like, I said, getting there. And here we are. Competitive WHFB. What is it? In 40k everyone can tell you it's mech. Bzzzzzt. Nap it's mobility (most often) or the ability to get from A to B while managing your opponent. By managing I mean suppressing and destroying as necessary. Sure, mech is the usual outlet for this playstyle but it certainly isn't the only one.

So in WHFB, what is it? What makes a good list? What do you need in WHFB? Considering the new missions and suchlike, and the new system. What are those essentials that every good list has or should have? I'd like to see some opinions.

I'm going to leave this up a few days before posting my own thoughts. I'm testing the waters, if you will.

Thanks folks, especially if you take part.

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What...?

As in, what would you like to see?

First off, sorry for the lack of activity but recurring headaches and work tend to clamp down that kind of thing during the week. However, I did notice my Warrior of Chaos review (part 3 coming later this week) was generally quite well received. Was just wondering, as posting up my thoughts on armies doesn't take too much time, and I'm still working on my (somewhat monolithic) guide to being good at magic, what armies would you guys like to see done next?

There's a poll up on the blog now. Vote for whatever armies you wish. That poll will be open a good while, and what I'm going to do is once I finish my WoC articles I'll write on the most popular after that. Then after those the next most popular and so on.

Thanks folks, enjoy.

Say what again.

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Warriors of Chaos. Part Two.

Ok folks, so this should be a fairly short part of the WoC chatter. But this is the one my mate was interested in. How would I run Warriors of Chaos? Well, let's see...

When making this army list the first thing I did was put in four units of 10 chaos warriors with halberds. For 640 pts, each unit dishing out ~16/17 (depending on enemy frontage) S5 attacks at WS5 and I5 you couldn't go wrong. Right?

Then my next port of call was 2 units of 30 marauders with hand weapons, shields, light armour, the mark of tzeentch and a standard and musician. These set me back 424 points, but gave me a pair of anvils to work my force around. So far so good. Already over 1000pts down though. Whew, still, it's a rock solid core. Right, next up we'll add in 4 units of warhounds for 120 points, and a Hellcannon. That's 205pts down.

So currently our list looks like this;

Core
4 Units of:
10 Chaos Warriors
Halberds
160 (640)

2 Units of:
30 Marauders of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch
Shields
Light Armour
Standard and Musician
212 (424)

4 Units of:
5 Chaos Warhounds
30 (120)

Rare
Hellcannon
205

From here I decided it was a good idea to go get some characters. First up, the Sorcerer Lord! I took him as a level 4, of course. Then I took a BSB. that's 405pts down so far, leaving me about 300 points to burn. Ok I thought, before I splurge all this on goodies, I'm taking another unit of 10 chaos warriors. Putting me at 50 chaos warriors. Considering 5 of these guys can hold their own against 25 empire swordsmen... yeah. Right then, now it came to the goodies. My Sorcerer got the Infernal Puppet (of course) and my BSB got the Armour of Morrslieb and the Mark of Tzeentch. Here I dropped a musician.

Then I realised my Sorcerer would be in combat, so I took an enchanted shield. Realising I was over points, I dropped two units of Warhounds. My exalted picked up a normal shield here. A bit of points jiggery pokery, an extra marauder later and I was sitting at 1990 points. Hurm, what can I get for 10 points? Necrotic Phylactery (immune to poison, the lore of death and the lore of nurgle, autopass all characteristic tests except LD) on my Sorcerer! That'll be great when they use things like Dwellers on him. So on it went. Ta da!

Ok, now, lore for my sorcerer. Honestly, in this army I like fire. Why? Well Chaos Mages aren't super magic batteries and fire, while not that devastating, is really easy to cast. It also helps with something WoC really struggle with (we'll go over this in part 3). Really killy monsters. As a fair few of these have regenerate I decided fire was a safe bet. Finally, it helps burn down small skirmish units. Sure, your opponent may let you thinking "Ha! He wasted a spell on a 60pt skirmisher unit!" but you don't have a better way to deal with them. Also, it helps with some units that WoC can't beat in combat. These tend to be the remnants of the "strike first, strike hard" cult from 7E. For example Black Guard, or all of the High Elves. As a final afterthought I realised my exalted didn't get that much from a shield, and could actually do a fair bit of damage to big monsters and those damned quick units with a flail. So I gave him one. A 4+/3++ will do him.

Then I realised my Warrior units don't have musicians. This needed fixed, so I dropped some Marauders. Swift reform in MSU is way way way too good to pass up.

So the final list is:

Lord
Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Lore of Fire
Infernal Puppet
Enchanted Shield
Necrotic Phylactery
320

Heroes
Exalted Hero
BSB
Armour of Morrslieb
Flail
Mark of Tzeentch
184

Core
10 Warriors
Halberds
Musician
166

10 Warriors
Halberds
Musician
166

10 Warriors
Halberds
Musician
166

10 Warriors
Halberds
Musician
166

10 Warriors
Halberds
Musician
166

30 Marauders of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch
Shields
Light Armour
Standard and Musician
212

26 Marauders of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch
Shields
Light Armour
Standard
188

5 Warhounds
30

5 Warhounds
30

Rare
Hellcannon
205

Right, this army plays MSU. Except a unit of chaos warriors can take a fully ranked infantry unit, or any MSU infantry unit in the game barring high elf ones. That's where your marauder chaff comes in, as well as the fire mage.

Juggernauts? In my 8th edition?!

Speaking of the fire mage, he and your hellcannon are your reach. The only things in the army that can reliably reach out and touch things. But it shouldn't be that much of a problem. With as many units as this army you should easily be able to cover the board. ^^

Finally, the warhounds. There aren't enough to run out in front. Use them as redirectors still, but take advantage of your movement and run them right up in the way. Definitely keep them back early game.


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Warriors of Chaos. Part One.

Righty, this was originally going to start as a guide to Warriors of Chaos. However, today a friend of mine ran a Warriors army by me and got me thinking "How would I do Warriors." I have a feeling though it's going to turn into a guide. Basically, it's my thoughts on the army. Now, let's start with the basics...

Warriors are slow. Sure, you can do all cavalry but then you'll have fewer models than my mordheim warband. So? They'll be rock hard with 1+ saves. No. No they will not. Think of this. Chaos Knights. 5 for 200pts. 5 T4 1+ saves. For that you can get around 12 Chaos Warriors with shields. Who will get a 3+ from shooting, which, while not as good is still serviceable, but the real thing is they have 7 wounds on the chaos knights. And that's what this all comes down to.

This is an edition where outside of combat, defenses mean pretty much fuck all. Dwellers, Plague, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, Final Transmutation, Infernal Gateway, Curse of Years, Dreaded 13th, the list goes on. Basically what I'm trying to convey is that if I did warriors, my approach would be boots on the ground. Now, this army would be slow, so I'd need to put in some form of reach. Thankfully, that's doable. So then, what would I use? Well I'll run through the units, quickly.

LORDS

Chaos Lords, never. Just get 2 exalteds and win games.

Sorcerer Lord, always, unless you're running a DP. That's a rough call but I personally prefer the raw defense of these guys.

Daemon Prince, maybe. Not a bad unit but it definitely lost some of it's oomph (almost all of it in fact) with true line of sight and people being able to hit back. These things just aren't tough enough to survive in 8E.

HEROES

Sorcerer, you have no reason not to if you have the points. As this is Chaos, you do not have the points. I would run one and your lord at 2250-2500, but I think it's too tight in 2k.

Exalted Hero, always run one. As the BSB of course. Otherwise, if you have the spare points just buy another block of warriors or something.

CORE

Marauders, sure. Not a bad unit by any means. A unit of 30 with HW/S, Light Armour and the MoTz gets a 5+/5++ in close combat. Which is a damn nice tarpit and costs about 200 points. Cool. However for about 200 points I could have 12 chaos warriors with halberds and shields. We'll come to that. Ultimately I think one block of these is going to make it into the list, purely because WoC do have a rather large weakness, which we'll come to at a later point as well.
 

Chaos Warriors, yup. If Marauders are the potatoes, these are the meat. Like I said, for 200pts you can have 12 with halberds and shields. That's a unit that dishes out stupid amounts of strength 5 attacks, and has a 3+ save against shooting. Now it's not all meat and gravy. They do have weaknesses. Mainly stuff that hits before them (not much) that denies them their save. Like I dunno, White Lions. Yup, White Lions sure would rip this unit a new one. So Arch, what do we do about that? Well, a WoC fanboy who bought the army because he heard they would be leet and pro in 8th edition might tell you to buy 12 warriors with Shields and the Mark of Tzeentch. I would tell him "SHUT MOUTH SHUT NOW MOUTH NOW SHUT!". Lets weigh that one up shall we. Against those 14 white lions you could get for your unit of 12 Chaos Warriors with shields and MoTz, here's what happens: Combat starts. The white lions hack down about 5. That's 80pts down the drain before you can swing. You return fire and kill, let's be generous and say 2. That's 30pts.

What!? I thought this unit was meant to be good against stuff like this! See, this is why you can never trust the internet. Except me. And Chumbalaya (http://bnhblog.blogspot.com). Maybe. Anyway, the unit you want for this situation is the aformentioned MoTz Marauders. Because they'll only kill 6 or 7. Which is about 30-40 points or so. And then you'll be stubborn. See how this is all coming together? In addition, your return fire isn't exactly much worse than the Warriors in this regard, because you'll be getting your full 10 attacks.

Ok, the other core choices.

Warhounds are good little irritation units and they can tie stuff up while your warriors close the gap. I say tie stuff up, half it's move or just stop them moving (depends if the opponent is smart enough to swift reform or not). Sure they can backpedal, but there's nothing you can do about that anyway. Nothing wrong here. 30pts well spent.

Marauder Horsemen. Mneh. Now they'll be eating return attacks, they're really fragile. However 6 with the MoK for 120 points isn't bad as such. It is 12 attacks at S5 and initiative 4. On a flank it could hurt. But that's the same points as about 8 warriors. With 3+ saves against shooting. And Toughness 4. Hrm. They're a maybe if you really need speed. Personally I think 4 units of warhounds would do more (sure they wouldn't kill anything but they'd buy time).

SPECIAL

Chosen! Grrr. Unless you're running the Tzeentchi Deathstar (don't, by the way) they're not that great. Mostly because 36pts for one roll on the eye of the gods and +1WS (when you're WS5...) isn't really worth it. Unless you play elves a lot, like me. Not a bad unit, but suffers in the long run against warriors. Unless you can get really good rolls on the EoTG table. Basically, if you have points, feel free to upgrade some warriors to Chosen, it might pay off. If you do give the champion Favour of the Gods though.

Forsaken. Haha.

Ok fine. They're not as good as warriors. Extra attacks isn't as good as I5 and WS5 with halberds. M6 is glorious, sure, but again, they're more expensive. You guys might be thinking what's 36pts for a unit? Over an army, that's an extra unit or 2. So hush.

Chariots. Not bad, I'd rather have more warriors. It's actually a pretty good chariot though, all things considered. But 4 wounds and the armour save of a chaos warrior with only +1T is... not bad, just not for 120 points. Chaos are all about being constantly and consistently deadly, which a chariot isn't. In most games it's deadly once or twice. And it sucks in protracted combats of hacking through chaff. Which warriors don't, by the way.

Ogres. Shit. Something good!? In MY special section!? Ok seriously, these guys aren't bad by virtue of chucking out a metric tonne of high strength attacks. Unfortunately they (like almost everything else in this army) fall into the category of "you can do it better with a small horde of chaos warriors". 3 of these with great weapons will get you 9 S6 WS3 attacks and 3 S4 stomps, striking last. That many points of chaos warriors will get you 16 S5 attacks at WS5 and I5. Ho hum. Then they get even more expensive if you give them chaos armour. Ho hum. Can anything beat chaos warriors in terms of sheer killing power...?

Chaos Knights! Riding hard, high in the saddle! Winged Steed of Unwearing Flight! Sweeping through air just like fire! Swift of the foot great of might! Nah not these guys either. You see, I took you the other way with that one. That's humour. Now I get why Brent does this so much. Nah seriously, these guys used to be gods among mere mortals. At least in the WoC army. Because in 7E speed was really really important. To an extent it still is. But all your WoC infantry receiving an extra 3" to their charges (on average) helps somewhat. Now, I haven't said whether or not they're good yet. It's true, you can get in more killing power with Chaos Warriors, but they don't have the save of the chaos knights. My honest opinion is no, they're not worth it. Why? Like I said, this is an age where defenses mean fuck all. Sure the speed is nice, but I don't think that's as important anymore. Having lots of units is pretty important though, and these guys don't help you achieve that.

Trolls. I hate stupidity with a totally unfair bias. But having a unit of 12 cold one riders fail stupidity 3 turns in a row at LD8 made me so furious I never played with Kroq-Gar again. Trolls on the other hand aren't bad, but low weapon skill lets them down, striking last isn't that much of a big deal, but if you compare them to Warriors then they are found lacking. However, to be fair to the big lugs, they're not bad in big units (make the most of their mutations), especially with Valkia kicking about. Personally though, I'd rather have more Chaos Warriors.

Dragon Ogres. Hrm, interesting. Let us compare a dragon ogre with 2 hand weapons to 4 warriors of chaos with halberds. Same save, cool. Same wounds, right. The chaos warriors get one more attack (but one of the dragon ogre's hits automatically). Fair play. Ok then, well what about initiative and weapon skill? Chaos Warriors win in both, but WS4 is still good (better than most). Ok then. But the Dragon Ogres are M7. But I thought you said you don't need speed? I don't think we do really. But if it turns out we do, you can damn well bet this is where I'll be turning. But it's not a cheap unit. However putting out 16 S5 attacks and 4 S5 stomps isn't bad. Especially when you have 16 wounds.

RARE

I'm only doing the Warshrine, Hellcannon and Spawn. The others can learn to not suck and then come back to me.

Warshrines. Uhhh, it's not bad. It's essential in a Tzeentchi Deathstar army. But I personally wouldn't bother. They can be quite rough to kill and can put out a good amount of damage, to be fair. But not nearly as much so as the Hellcannon.

Hellcannons. Ho ho. This thing. Well, where do we start. It's also T6 (like a Warshrine). It has a 5+ "handler ward". It also has a 4+ Armour. And it has 5 wounds. Ok, so it's tough to kill. In close combat, it has 5S5 WS4 attacks, and thunderstomp. So it kicks arse there too. Finally, it fires a S5(10) stone thrower that causes panic at -1LD if you're hit by the template. He doesn't even need to wound. This is a fun thing to shoot at Hellpits. Ok great, so what else? Did I mention it's unbreakable. Yeah, it's unbreakable.

"Yeah but it's a War Machine so it can't charge except for rampage, and automatically dies to dwellers." SHUT MOUTH SHUT MOUTH SHUT NOW! It's a Monster with Handlers, Tool. This means it can charge. Basically if you deploy this thing 12" in, take some potshots and wait until something breaks through your lines or tries to flank you, this thing will run in and most likely absolutely obliterate it. All for 205 points. I'd take one, definitely. Mostly because it gives Warriors some reach, and helps kill monsters (which they struggle with, from what I've seen). Downside is it usually goes absolutely apeshit if the Dwarfs die (in that it charges the closes unit, not what you want). However it's very unlikely to do so while the dwarfs are alive, as they are LD9 for it's rampage check. It also has a funky misfire chart. Three is particularly lols in 8th edition. I just want that to happen to Teclis. It'd make my day.


Ok folks, so I'm going to stop part one here. Part Two will be the actual "How would you do Warriors?" part. I just don't want your fragile little brains hurt by my massive wall of text.

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The 2k MSU Skaven Shooting Army MK II.II

I'm sure you guys know how this works now. Just a fairly minor change in the list...

Lords
Grey Seer (general)
240

Grey Seer
Power Scroll
260

Heroes
Warlock Engineer
Doomrocket
45

Warlock Engineer
15

Warlock Engineer
15

Warlock Engineer
15

Chieftan
Shield
BSB
72

Core
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Standard of Discipline
Warpfire Thrower
165

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150

10 Stormvermin
Warpfire Thrower
140

5 Giant Rats
Packmaster
23

5 Giant Rats
Packmaster
23

Special
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90

3 Jezzails
60

3 Jezzails
60

5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers
Poisoned Wind Mortar
115

Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Warp Lightning Cannon
90

Ok I assume you guys know how this list works by now. Let me explain. No slaves, and another 10 Stormvermin. Now, asking why is fair. 60 slaves takes up a lot of space, and they have hindered my ability to move in the past. In addition they don't kill very much. Finally, Cornered Rats! can be lethal to weapon teams or random Engineers kicking about. Which isn't good. So I dropped them. At 2k I think 11 sacrificial units (which is only 481pts, lol) is enough. What's amusing is that this army runs about as 23 units/models to be seperately targetted. Ah good times.

Oh, and 4 Warpfire Throwers. Come and get me.

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