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So as the counterpart to the close combat army, I decided to do the shooting army article quite quickly. This list has good essentials, but there's a few things I'd like to squeeze in, which is where you guys come in. Basically my main gripes are no poison on the gutter runners, and no storm banner (for anti flyer/when it'd be just plain advantageous). So, on to the list...
Right, I'll start with the list first this time;
IGNORE ALL MENTION OF DOOMWHEELS AND NO POISON. THE LIST HAS BEEN UPDATED
MK I.I
Lord
Grey Seer
Power Scroll
275
This guy is a level 4 wizard, so he's pretty much auto-include. I wouldn't mind my verminlord, but I don't want him without the storm banner. Power Scroll is good Warhams.
Heroes
Warlock Engineer
Doomrocket
45
Warlock Engineer
15
Warlock Engineer
15
These guys are here just to piss people off. Angle them awkwardly in front of a unit, with a doomwheel not far behind them. They can't move forward cause of the engineer, if they charge him they can reform to face the doomwheel and get charged. If they overrun they can get flank charged by the doomwheel. Either way I'm good. Add more units to the recipe for greater fun (and this list has no shortage of units). Basically, these guys are good. I'd prolly put them in units and only bring them out of the units when it's necessary, to avoid unnecessary panic. And suddenly Doomrocket.
Chieftan
BSB
70
He helps with panic, and is a +1 for blood and glory (putting me at fortitude 6).
Core
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Poisoned Wind Mortar
145
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Poisoned Wind Mortar
145
10 Stormvermin
Standard
Warpfire Thrower
150
+3 for Blood and Glory, units that might actually kill something, especially on the flank (which is why I have so many disposable throw away units. Well, one of the reasons). They also give me 3 weapon teams, and 6 different "units" running around. Pretty good in my opinion.
20 Slaves
Slings
Musician
52
20 Slaves
Slings
Musician
52
20 Slaves
Slings
Musician
52
Irritating chaff and redirection. As well as being able to kill things (if people overrun in to their range, and it does happen, they're eating 40 shots hitting on 6s) when the enemy's battle line starts to dissolve. However, I might drop a unit for 2 units of 6 giant rats, I'm unsure.
Special
5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers
Poisoned Wind Mortar
115
Another redirection unit, but this one can actually kill stuff. Go figure, right? Mostly here for the redirection and cheap mortar, but PWGs can -seriously- actually kill stuff. And they're not bad at taking out war machines. Seriously.
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90
5 Gutter Runners
Slings
Poison
90
Warmachine hunters, fast cavalry killers (striking first with WS4 and 2A each, shoopidy woopidy, also slinging them to death works) and another redirection unit. I have a feeling anyone playing against this army will be going nowhere quickly. In the MKI.I I took poison.
3 Jezzails
60
3 Jezzails
60
3 Jezzails
60
They shoot big stuff. Really that's about it for these guys. I reason most folk wont want to waste fire on "only" 3 Jezzails. And thanks to their long range I can put them far back enough, and space them so that even if they're destroyed with shooting, no one will be able to hear them scream.
Rare
Warp Lightning Cannon
90
Warp Lightning Cannon
90
My golden boys of 8E. These things just DESTROY STUFF. Seriously, last game, my 2 took out a manticore (ok the stormvermin did all wounds but one, but shoosh), did about 8 wounds to hydras, one shotted a chariot, as well as killing other random infantry that so happened to be hit by the blast. Good times.
Plagueclaw Catapult
100
Plagueclaw Catapult
100
I'm trying these out at the moment.
So there we have it. This list basically shoots and magics the enemy army, as they're forced to sullenly trudge across the board at a snails pace, through an army of redirectors and chaff units. No single unit is worth more than 150 pts, if you exclude the grey seer. So killing off units is supposed to feel a bit like pissing in the wind. At least, that's the plan.
I'm unsure of running without an anvil, but Chumby urges me to try it, so try it I shall. What I'm going to do is if I find myself lacking punch, I'm going to reduce the number of units in the list and increase the hitting power. But I'll need to test it to see that.
So there we have it. 2000pts of MSU avoidance and shooting. This looks fucking fun to play against. Admittedly an irresistable casket of souls could ruin my entire army in one fel swoop. But what can you do.
I hope you enjoyed the article.
been thinking about skaven myself for a while now, but can't decide on a lsit. if you keep putting this stuff out, i'll keep checking back
ReplyDeleteI'm doing themes next, got any preferences? I count winning as a theme.
ReplyDeletePower Scroll is strong, but shouldn't you put it on a level 1 or 2? That way you can all but be assured that the level 2 will have 13th spell and when it does go off with IF you won't potentially lose your level 4.
ReplyDeleteI know this list is only 2k points so fitting in 2 casters is tough, but I'd say maybe don't bring the power scroll at all? In your experience has it been worth it on a level 4?
OK, now here is a list that I am more comfortable with :)
ReplyDeleteYour comments at the top first. You do not need poison on the Gutter Runners. For the same cost you can add 2 more gutter runners, which is in most cases better than poison.
Second, yeah the stormbanner is cool, but you do not need it with this much shooting. The armies that can outshoot you (DE, HE, and EMP) are armies that the catapult is good against, so I would rethink that.
I do not know why you have 4 WLEs. 3 would be sufficient.
I would suggest combining 2 of the slave units into one big unit. So that you have a unit of 20 and a unit off 40. The 40 man unit will have a better chance of holding against dedicated Close combat units.
DoomWheels are terrible with the Random Move rules. You have a shooty army that wants to hit midfield and let loose, and the DoomWheels will want to keep going forward, allowing charges and overruns.
@Nikephoros - Only Vermin lords and Grey Seers can take the 13th spell. WLEs and Plague Priests cannnot.
ReplyDeleteEngies can roll it, but you run the risk of your Seer getting it first.
ReplyDeleteI like this list, but it does need testing. Lucky for us, the Skaven book is ridiculously flexible and awesome in 8th.
Engie's can't roll the 13th, you're prolly thinking of crack's call chumbalata?
ReplyDeleteTo the other comments in general; The miscast table only has a very small chance of actually offing my wizard. Most of the time it doesn't. The worst result is cascade obviously, followed by the one that makes you lose D3 wizard levels, and even then, only if I roll a 3+. And cascade is also only bad half the time. I tend to use the power scroll when my Seer has already paid his points and there's something I REALLY need to die. Or it's something that's worth taking the miscast for. Example, turn 5, 8 black guard with a dreadlord. Unit is worth about 600pts all told, seer has already killed way over 500pts of stuff. No reason to not blow it then.
Basically it's just good for stuff like that. And it doesn't always need to be used on the 13th, I've used it on Crack's Call to kill 2 hydras before. (:
I don't mind doomwheels not being that shooty, if I'm honest. I think the trick to them is proper deployment. I (until now) deployed them on the line, but I think deploying them 6-8" in is the way to do it. That way there'll be stuff for them to shoot and charge after your enemy moves up. Of course if you're fighting a gunline, deploy on the line. But see if they even had M6, I'd be so happy.
On the the list itself; I have 4 WLEs cause I had no idea what to do with the remaining 15pts.
Also, you raise a good point about the catapult. I might try running 2 and seeing how that goes, it'd also give me another 100pts or so to play with. But I'm not done testing doomwheels yet. I like having something that can actually kill stuff in combat. Gonna give both a go I think.
If I was to make a unit of 40 I'd probably drop the slings. I'd probably only spend 1, 2 turns maximum in 2 ranks before swift-reforming (<<Underused rule of the edition) in to combat formation. But it kind of breaks the MSU feel I think. I'll test this list as it is first, then try it. (:
Thanks for all the great feedback folks!
Ugh, I misspelled Chumbalaya. Apologies mate, and I seemingly can't edit comments. Just delete them.
ReplyDelete*Fury*
If you want to be able to dish some damage in Close Combat, which is why I initially tried DoomWheels, I would suggest 2 man RO units. For the price of 2 DWs, you can fit in 3 2-Man RO units with an additional handler. The ROs are much easier to control and have almost the same footprint as a doomwheel.
ReplyDeleteI tried them out, and other than stupidity, if you loose the handlers, They performed decently.
On to where to spend the extra 15 points, Dragonhelm on the BSB and a shield.
I reckon I'm going to drop both wheels for 2 Plagueclaws in my next game. With the 101 spare points i'm going with poison on the gutter runners, for monster hunting (after some quick math, it's obviously preferable). From then though I have no idea. 26pts to burn. If I drop that engineer it's 41 to burn. Any ideas folks?
ReplyDeleteTak.
Also, the napkin math on poisoned attacks;
ReplyDeleteVS T3
15 Poisoned Gutters (hitting on 5s, as it's most common)
5 Poison Hits
5 Normal Hits
7.5 Wounds before AS.
21 Unpoisoned Gutter Runners
14 Hits
7 Wounds before AS.
VS T4
15 Poisoned Gutters
5 Poisoned Hits
5 Normal Hits
1.6666 wounds
6.66666 Wounds
21 Unpoisoned Gutter Runners
14 Hits
4.333333 Wounds
VS T5+
15 Poisoned Gutters
5 Poisoned Hits
5 Normal Hits
5.83 Wounds
21 Unpoisoned Gutter Runners
14 Hits
2.33333 Wounds
So I think that shows that for the points, poison is still worth it. Just for taking out tougher foes, as I'm losing 2 major monster killers in the doomwheels. So any ideas what to spend the remaining 41pts on? Thanks folks. (:
I know that you are trying to keep the cost down, but If you have 45 points available, the Talisman of Protection on the Grey Seer would help against miscasts and Close Combat.
ReplyDeleteTrue enough. But I genuinely can't afford it. List updated, but I have a spare 39pts, and no idea what to do with it. Any ideas?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a Dragonhelm and Shield on the BSB, and then give all of your WLEs a pistol. It will not do too much, but it is always fun to take a Stand and Shoot reaction.
ReplyDelete